Forum:Definitive Family Trees
One thing that's been driving me crazy for YEARS is that I never got to see Gomamon's, Biyomon's, Tentomon's, or Palmon's Megas. I recently started looking it up but it's quite confusing. Gomamon for example has two possible megas: Plesiomon and Vikemon, while Plesiomon's page says it's gomamon's mega and it does seem to be colored the same as gomamon, Vikemon looks so much more like Zudomon and a logical advancement of the seal/walrus theme. Another thing that plagues me is that with Veemon his champion was exveemon. But I know Veedramon exists and continues veemon's theme of blue dinsosaur like digimon. In fact it seems far more likely that exveemon exists only to facilitate the DNA digivolution that interrupted his normal line. So now I wonder what the normal digivolutions for the second season would have been. I don't care so much for the other seasons outside the first two, but if anyone is really into that we can work on those as well. I want to finally have a definitive family tree for my favorite digimon. As a side mission I am also willing to work on other digimon such as Betamon->Seadramon->Megaseadramon->Metalseadramon and so on and so forth. Once we get the digidestined trees done I want to make an encyclopedia of digivolution if I can :D Here's our list so far: First Season: Botamon-Koromon-Agumon-Greymon-SkullGreymon/MetalGreymon-WarGreymon Punimon-Tsunomon-Gabumon-Garurumon-WereGarurumon-MetalGarurumon Pabumon-Motimon-Tentomon-Kabuterimon-MegaKabuterimon-(HerculesKabuterimon) Pichimon-Bukamon-Gomamon-Ikkakumon-Zudomon-Vikemon/Plesiomon Nyokimon-Yokomon-Biyomon-Birdramon-Garudamon-Hououmon Yuramon-Tanemon-Palmon-Togemon-Lillymon-(Rosemon) Poyomon-Tokomon-Patamon-Angemon-MagnaAngemon-Seraphimon Yukimibotamon-Nyaromon-Salamon-Gatomon-Angewoman-(Magnadramon/Ophanimon) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second Season: Chibomon-DemiVeemon-Veemon-Veedramon-Aeroveedramon-UlforceVeedramon Pururumon-Poromon-Hawkmon-Aquilamon-?????/Silphymon-?????/Valkryimon Tsubumon-Upamon-Armadillomon-Ankylomon-????/Shakkoumon-????/(Vikemon) Leafmon-Minmon-Wormmon-Stingmon-(JewelBeemon)/Dinobeemon-????/(GranKuwagamon) Zerimon-Gummymon-Terriermon-Gargomon-Rapidmon-MegaGargomon Conomon-Kokomon-Lopmon-Wendigomon-Antylamon-Kerpymon or Cherubimon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Third Season: Ketomon-Hopmon-Monodramon-Strikedramon-Cyberdramon-Justimon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Extra Lines: ????-????-????-Leomon-(GrapLeomon)-SaberLeomon ????-????-Otamamon-Gekomon-ShogunGekomon-???? Mokumon-DemiMeramon-????-Meramon-SkullMeramon-???? MetalKoromon-Kapurimon-????-Gaurdromon-Andromon-HiAndromon ????-????-DemiDevimon-Devimon-(MarineDevimon/SkullSatamon/Myotismon)-????/????/VenomMyotismon ????-????-????-Sukamon-Etemon-MetalEtemon ????-????-????-????-Myotismon-VenomMyotismon ????-????-Betamon-Seadramon-MegaSeadramon-MetalSeadramon ????-????-Mushroommon-Woodmon-Cherrymon-Puppetmon ????-????-????-????-Gigadramon/Megadramon-Machinedramon Piedmon (nothing available at all) ????-????-????-????-Mephistophomon-Apokarimon Kuramon-Tsumemon-Keramon-Chrysalimon-Infermon-Diaboromon a / denotes multiple possibilities, and () denotes a guess If you have any suggestions please feel free to post them. Vampiremessiah51 22:05, March 28, 2010 (UTC) Actually most of those ultimates you mentioned ARE DNA digivolutions, which as you stated aren't natural stages. Also I can't believe no one else can see how oddly appropriate Vikemon is for Gomamon's Mega. I know it says Plesiomon is his Mega but where did that come from? Vikemon fits him so much better other than looking like a huge LIZARD version of Gomamon. Vikemon looks much more like a seal/walrus type and a much more natural evolution of Zudomon. It even fits the norse theme as well. ExVeemon doesn't seem to HAVE a natural ultimate, and Imperialdramon doesn't happen without Paildramon who isn't natural either. I'm 90% sure Veedramon is his natural and we have evidence of that chain leading straight up to a mega. Obviously he was origionally intended to be the champion, but perhaps it was too much like Greymon and didn't fit the DNA digivolution form as well. Shakkoumon is in fact NOT Armadillomon's Natural Evolution either, that's a DNA digivolution, it looks NOTHING like ankylomon, its more of a combination of an Angel and an Earthy digimon, which makes perfect sense for being combined between a fossilized creature and an actual angel... Ankylomon would most likely evolve into a larger spikier digimon of a similar color continuing it's pattern. See my argument? Vampiremessiah51 21:42, March 29, 2010 (UTC) There really isn't another good Ultimate for Ankylomon. Vikemon was originally a DNA of Zudomon and Shakkoumon, it just happens to look more like the Zudomon side (same as Shakkoumon looks more like the Angemon side; Ankylomon's DNA seems to not be very dominant). I know this isn't actually supported by anything, but I usually envision Lampmon as an evolved form of Shakkoumon. Also, Gomamon has another possible Mega (from the first V-Pet it was in) in MarineAngemon, which kind of resembles Gomamon at least. The Golux 00:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC) :Digimon Tamers: Brave Tamer is the game Kryten's talking about. Zudomon > Vikemon's proven in the Vikemon biography. :Anything else is speculation, no matter what you may think. Yes, you can have opinions, but that doesn't stop Shakkoumon from being Armadillomon's Ultimate form in the D-3 and Brave Tamer. Or that Paildramon digivolves from ExVeemon in numerous places. Lanate (talk) 02:32, March 30, 2010 (UTC) Well I guess Gomamon is solved thanks Lanate. DNA digimon from the second season are ultimate level, they just aren't the natural ones. I am searching for their natural ones. I know DNA digivolution is only a method of digivolution. What -I- meant was that Shakkoumon is NOT Armadillomon's natural ultimate BECAUSE it is a DNA digivolution. I'm trying to avoid video game evolutions cause they use that huge tree which mixes and matches the families. I'm trying to use logic and whatever information I can get ahold of to find their true family trees for as many digimon as I can.Vampiremessiah51 01:25, March 31, 2010 (UTC) It's a good theory but I honestly can't say I agree with it. When digimon DNA digivolve you can hear BOTH digimon's voices simultaneously. Also in the show they described it as feeling like they were combined into a single being. Assuming all digimon are capable of digivolving to mega over time (though I must say I doubt next to none accomplish this) then Armadillomon must have his own ultimate and mega forms. The way I see it is that Shakkoumon is a combination of angemon and ankylomon thus not being either of their natural ultimates but a new stronger ultimate created by their fusing. It can't be natural because without Angemon, Ankylomon could have never become shakkoumon and vice versa. He must have his own ultimate form as well, but like you mentioned with the power sources, because he lacked the needed power, he had no other means of reaching an ultimate level except by DNA digivolving so we don't know his natural state. You could be right but honestly I think there's enough evidence to support the fact that no DNA digimon can naturally occur without DNA digivolution (aka it wouldn't happen naturally). Vampiremessiah51 23:26, March 31, 2010 (UTC) :You're ignoring the fact that in Digimon Tamers: Brave Tamer he does reach Shakkoumon naturally. Lanate (talk) 23:32, March 31, 2010 (UTC) ::Right. It's not a theory. It happens all the time, and has been explicitly shown. In Digimon Battle, Devimon digivolves naturally to SkullSatamon, through simply defeating enough Digimon and taking their data (like in the original pets). In Digimon V-Tamer 01, SkullSatamon is the DNA digivolution of Devimon and Ogremon. ::All methods of digivolution are simply a way of finding energy. Whether you use a DigiDestined's energy, a tag and crest, a Digi-Egg, DNA digivolution, Biomerging, Spirits, or you use the original method of taking others' data, it's just a power source. Yes, most of the Spirit and Digi-Egg evolutions have been designed to make it obvious that they were Digi-Egg or Spirit digivolved, but they can be reached naturally as well. The same goes with DNA, except that only a few Digimon have the DNA path made obvious. 00:00, April 1, 2010 (UTC) I know it happens naturally in video games. I'm going by the show and logic. In the show it describes the digimon feeling as though they weren't even themselves but a new individual combined out of two beings. This makes a heavy argument against a DNA digivolution being a natural part of their family tree because it makes no sense that in order for them to reach their ultimate level that they'd be biologically (or digitially) required to lose their individual conciousness to digivolve. DNA digivolution is the result of two seperate digimon fusing into a single being. If it were natural then angemon would also have two ultimates which only happens in videogames and the card games. In the show it seems implied that each digimon has it's own family. Even on the wiki it seems to state that there are natural family trees and that DNA digivolution is merely a crossing of two separate digimon. I simply don't see how it'd be a logical idea for two digimon to fuse into one as the ONLY means to advance to their next level. I know it happens naturally on the D3 toy because there was no other way to really get it to work, and I haven't played a video game involving it but from every bit of information I can find it isn't part of a digimon's natural digivolutionary cycle. Anyways this isnt' even the argument. I'm not here to prove whether DNA digivolution is natural or not. This topic is about trying to find their natural evolutions. Vampiremessiah51 00:30, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :...you're using the Tamer series of games for Vikemon et. all in the first place, and that is also the main source for "DNA is just a power source". :Frontier specifically shows that the consciousness bit is situational. When the kids spirit evolve, they have their consciousness, but the spirits as pure Digimon also have their own consciousness. They also show a Gallantmon that has only one consciousness, not two. :Your also purposefully ignoring gigantic parts of the series, such as the manga or canon games (you know, where Ryo appears). If you're going to just put your fingers in your ears and shout "Lalalala", then there's really no point in discussing what the canon is with you. ::Oh, and your recent edit (JewelBeemon and TigerVespamon) is a complete contradiction to your argument. Even in TigerVespamon's bio, it says that he is from CannonBeemon, if you want to talk "natural", and JewelBeemon is only ever said to be Stingmon's evolution in the Korean RPG and the cards. Also, Monodramon's original Mega is ZeedMillenniumon - Justimon only ever appears as a Biomerge evolution (you know, that whole "Oh no, unnatural!" thing you're talking about). 01:46, April 1, 2010 (UTC) I admit I only know the first two seasons and tiny pieces of the third. I have not see a whole lot of all the others. I used Vikemon because he visibly looks like a gomamon digivolution, his bio states that he's a gomamon digivolution, by all means it seems he was DESIGNED to be a gomamon digivolution. I don't see much point in saying he's not. I really don't know where this power source thing is coming from. I haven't ever heard that explanation before and I'm not trying to ignore it but it's seriously confusing me. DNA digivolution has always been presented to me as a seperate form of digivolution. I did notice that the spirit evolution thing or whatever makes gallantmon did have a single conciousness, I simply assumed from what little I knew about it that it was separate from DNA Digivolution but I honestly don't know enough to be sure of that. Honestly for the spirit thing I'd be perfectly content with the power source thing. It would fit quite well and explain alot for me. I found Jewelbeemon and he visibly looked like a digivolution of stingmon, I found sources that seemed to corroborate that so it seemed to me like he would be stingmon's ultimate. TigerVespamon I'm honestly less sure of and if what you say is true than I'm taking him down though I thought Cannonbeemon was another mega when I checked it before. As for Justimon, I thought ZeedMilleniummon was a form or mode of Milleniummon. I haven't seen any of those episodes and I'm just trying to piece it together. I saw something about Monodramon becoming ZeedMilleniummon but I honestly didn't understand it and Zeed didn't seem like he matched at all and I figured it was some climactic thing where he fused with Milleniummon to combat him from within or something I can't even pretend to know. Justimon just seemed like he fit better. I'll do more research on that. Honestly if there's more I can learn I'm willing to do so, but this power source thing seems to be taking the second season's DNA digivolution canon and blowing it into a fine fine dust that makes no sense, and that's where all My knowledge of this matter is coming from. I have no beef with you personally I'm just confused and trying to make sense of it. I'd rather discuss this on some kind of PM instead of here cause I don't want to dilute this topic until I figure it out. Vampiremessiah51 02:34, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ((Yeah I messed up on TigerVespamon fixing it, as for Monodramon, it still seems like Cyberdramon was battling ZeedMilleniummon and that Moon=Milleniummon formed ZeedMilleniummon. I'm not sure how Cyberdramon digivolves into Zeed.))Vampiremessiah51 02:39, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Essentially: **There are ~1000 different species of Digimon. **Digimon require energy to digivolve. **In "the wild", Digimon acquire this energy by defeating other Digimon and absorbing their data (not always all of it). This is the premise behind the original V-Pets, as well as V-Tamer 01 and Tamers. **Using this form, Digimon usually have an optimum evolution (the "natural" thing you're talking about), and though they can return to their higher levels if they are defeated and forced to degenerate, they can have a weaker form. This is the premise behind the "80% Winning Percentage!" cards. ***Ex: In V-Tamer 01, MagnaAngemon was undefeated, and digivolved to Seraphimon when he needed to. However, he was defeated by Arkadimon, and degenerated to MagnaAngemon. He was able to return to Mega later in the series, but digivolved to the weaker Dominimon instead of Seraphimon. **Basically, a Digimon can digivolve to most any Digimon of a higher level. The only real "path" here is due to win ratios. **Digimon can digivolve "artificially" by finding an alternate power source. In V-Tamer 01, this was the Digimental. In Adventure, it was the DigiDestined (their entire purpose, actually), and later the tags and crests. In Adventure 02, it was the Digi-Eggs and DNA Digivolution (which temporarily cannabilizes another Digimon for power). In Tamers, it was the cards, and later, the Tamers themselves, similar to DNA Digivolution. In Frontier, it was either the Spirits, or the Children (not so clear). ***There are also unique ways of using another Digimon's data -- for example, Grizzlymon can use Arkadimon's power data to digivolve to Callismon, instead of Marsmon. Daemon was able to be absorbed into Arkadimon, and then take it over from inside. Barbamon was able to fuse with Yggdrasil, and influence NEO after letting himself be absorbed by it. Monodramon DNA digivolved with ZeedMillenniummon in order to form Cyberdramon. Basically, in very special circumstances, the absorbed Digimon can retain its will, especially if the absorption was voluntary. **In general, the power source supplied by the DigiDestined (in whatever form it is given) allows a Digimon to digivolve to its optimum evolution, even if it has been defeated before. ***Although a few Digimon (Omnimon, Chaosmon, Paildramon, Dinobeemon, Silphymon, Shakkoumon, and a few more) are clearly designed to look like they are fused from the Champion Digimon, they can digivolve "naturally" from a single Champion Digimon as well. In Digimon Adventure, Silphymon is Aquilamon's optimum evolution, just as Angewomon is Gatomon's optimum evolution. The final Digimon depends on which Digimon is the "primary" Digimon in the digivolution. This is also how DNA digivolution works in the Digimon Story games - the digivolution requirements are placed on the "primary" Digimon. **"Dark" evolutions are somewhat similar, but instead of being the weakest form of a Digimon, they are usually some kind of "opposite" - an undead or demonic form of the Digimon. It's like angels - when you fall from a really high point of power, you can go so far that you go past zero and come out again on the other side. This wiki lists all evolutions which are seen in the various stories - 90% of these are "optimum" evolutions, though there are also "lesser" evolutions. 06:45, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Well I am aware that in the origional keychains, the card games and many other video games such as digimon world there was a digimon tree of possible digivolutions. Agumon digivolving to greymon or tyrannomon or even centarumon. In the show it seemed alot more stable though, they used the same digivolutions all the time. It seemed like they had their own specific family tree, Gabumon had Garurumon's fur, Garurumon had three more levels each being a more developed version of the last etc... It just seemed to me that perhaps this was their natural and normal evolutionary patterns. That Gabumon was most likely to become a garurumon (though if there were exceptions I wouldn't be too utterly surprised honestly). This I saw as "normal" digivolution. Warp digivolution is normal digivolution that skips a level or two or even three. Dark Digivolution is the same as normal digivolution but it results in a corrupted form instead of the proper form. DNA digivolution to me always seemed like it deviated from this line of normal digivolutions by introducing the Digital DNA of another digimon thus creating a new creature belonging to both lines simultaneously. Paildramon for example has parts of Exveemon and parts of Stingmon. It seemed unlikely to me that an Exveemon would naturally digivolve into a creature that was half of another creature. Wouldn't he digivolve into another more developed version of himself? Wouldn't Paildramon be created solely by combining an exveemon and a stingmon? Honestly I'm not sure I am 100% correct you could be right. But it seems so much more logical to me that DNA digivolution is a combination of two digimon in order to reach the next level in order to get around the lack of power (provided by a crest) required to reach the digimon's normal means. I guess an example I could use would be: Greymon => Metalgreymon Garurumon => weregarurumon If for some reason they didn't have their crests and couldnt' reach this stage. In order for them to produce an ultimate they'd have to DNA digivolve to combine into a creature that was half greymon half garurumon (there is no such digimon that I know of, but this is an example after all). This creature normally wouldn't exist by normally digivolving either digimon but by combining them it is created. That's sorta how I've always seen it. I will continue reading up on DNA digivolution, because I must say I am skeptical and it does argue with ALOT of stuff in the first and second seasons which is pretty much all of my background knowledge. Perhaps this energy source thing is part of an explanation used in a newer series I haven't seen. For all I know your explanation is completely true in the newer series, I'm just going off of what I remember hearing Izzy say and how the digimon themselves explained it. Who knows maybe my theory is the antiquated version, I will continue studying it though because I want to figure this out. In the meantime if you can help me work on the newer series I know nothing about I'd appreciate it. I'm watching the third season right now, after that I honestly know nothing at all. Vampiremessiah51 02:11, April 2, 2010 (UTC) I've been looking everywhere and so far all I can find is other sites who have copied exactly what is on this wikia. Sadly what's on this wikia doesn't really definitively side with either of us. It seems to slightly support my facts but not my theory itself and it doesn't really mention yours at all. I guess I'll just have to keep watching the newer material to see if they explain it better. Vampiremessiah51 02:25, April 2, 2010 (UTC) :Well, I don't know what to say, then. What I laid out above is the canon explanation that the series uses from start to finish. The win ratio thing is built into everything, from the original v-pets, to the cards, the games, and the manga. Leomon explains that the DigiDestined are substitute batteries in "The Legend of the DigiDestined". If you're not willing to listen to what I laid out, then there's no more to say. :I believe digipedia and shining evolution cover some of this as well. 06:04, April 2, 2010 (UTC) Actually the win ratio thing and the digidestined supplying the power to digivolve makes perfect sense. Digimon do require lots of power to digivolve. The digidestined's digivices supply a burst of power to take them to that next level. Winning battles and collecting energy/data gives digimon the energy naturally but that takes a far longer time (which means not all digimon can collect enough energy to make it to ultimate or mega). A digidestined can supply a quick temporary burst of energy enough to digivolve for awhile. Honestly I can't agree more on those matters. It's just the DNA digivolving part that sounds fishy to me that's all. And I haven't heard of shining evolution. Vampiremessiah51 23:53, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::You type "shining evolution" into google and you get a website. 13:16, April 6, 2010 (UTC) I checked it out. Still reading through it. It seems very helpful. It honestly had less information than DigiWikia on DNA digivolution, and most of the information deals with japanese continuity and terms, but it definately helped figure out Palmon and Biyomon's Megas. They are without doubt Rosemon and Phoenixmon/Hououmon respectively. As for gomamon it said plesiomon was the mega, while vikemon does seriously resemble the theme of gomamon's digivolutions and his bio hints that he is related to zudomon and ikkakumon. I'm up in the air on that one. Plesiomon does directly resemble gomamon himself but Vikemon looks more related to his other digivolutions. I'm gonna keep that one up in the air still. Vampiremessiah51 21:59, April 6, 2010 (UTC) To help you out just a little bit- My d-terminal says demi-meramon evolves to candlemon, candlemon to meramon, meramon to skullmeramon, skullmeramon to Bolton. Which bring me to explain- the series is not the ultimate cannon. This franchise grew from the v-pets into various media, making it necessary to understand what rules and laws are true across all that media. Many cards respective to those same characters in the first season say some funny things, Like how to digivolve to Bolton. The Cards say it requires DNA- and there is only 1 possibility, skull meramon and pumpkinmon. This makes me think that the digiworld is different than you think. It is indeed the power that should be the focus in evolving- not the family. Let us not confuse the creative for the fuctional. Evolution trees are functional- the names and appearances of digimon are artistic. For example: Greymon, skull greymon, wargreymon, blackwargreymon. In this situation some of these digimon can evolve and de-evolve into each other but not all of them can evolve into ALL of them. This goes much farther then the limits between levels: ei. Greymon to Wargreymon- because BlackWargreymon cannot become WarGreymon and Skullgreymon cannot become metalgreymon. So the creative concept that joins digimon cannot be said to carry much weight in "natural" digivolution trees. Or else metalmamemon should be the digivolution from mamemon. If logic be looked at- the creative unity of a digivolution family tree is illogical. Or else the Digivolution tree wouldn't exist. Agumon has to evolve to a champion, regardless of the similarities between its current form and its future champion form. If we argue that the creative unity should be listened to, toy agumon should be able to evolve to agumon and vice versa, but this destroys the tree, since both of them are rookies and evolve into completely digimon. It will leave us with an ambigous mess of diginames and digiadjectives. CandlemonTamer 03:10, June 12, 2010 (UTC) Realize that this franchise was made be people, and hatches as part of a unique and perfect dark master's plan, this franchise grows and it imposes some limits on the creative unity. The fact that there is a evolution tree and that it, for the most part, is uniform accross the different media(with exceptions like the digibattle lilymon card), is more than a blessing. :Plenty of Digimon can evolve from an Ultimate to another Ultimate. It's called "Slide Evolution". Also, there is no "creative unity" - virtually any Digimon can digivolve into any other. For example, with Boltmon, it is SkullMeramon + the second of any of the data Digimon in the Pendulums, or the first data of any of them + Pumpkinmon. :Beyond that, I can't understand what the hell you're saying here.Glorious :I'm pretty much saying what you said, although I was wrong about the same level digivolution. Yes there is no creative unity, which what I think is frustrating to vampiremessiah, he is looking for the same unity that greymon and wargreymon has, for the rest of the main digimon. CandlemonTamer 03:44, June 12, 2010 (UTC)